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mysterae
Speed Merchant
790 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 19:20:26
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| Tonight on BBC4, 10.00.to 11.00. "Death on a Mountain". |
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ian sharp
Speed Merchant
522 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 20:59:35
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| Cheers,Jimmy,it's been on before,but still an un-missable tribute to one of thr GB greats. |
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Gordon Goldie
Speed Merchant
550 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 08:30:22
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I've always had mixed views over Tom Simpson. He died two weeks after I was born, so he was not a rider of my era. I'd always dismissed everything he achieved because in my mind he was "just another druggie".
As I get older and my naivety reduces I realise that a great many continental pro riders of that time, and probably well into my time, doped just to survive in search of the next contract and the next year's wage? If you remove the dope factor, the winners would probably still have been the same people.
Can you imagine the outcry now if a rider pulled out a flask of brandy on the bottom slopes of amajor climb?
Last night's programme was good and showed how tough things were then, with seemingly primative equipment and often tough road surfaces.
Every aspiring young rider should watch things like this.
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Steve McGinty
Speed Merchant
739 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 11:46:13
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A shame, but inevitable, that Simpson's name is always linked to drugs.
I've not seen last nights programme, but I'd encourage anyone interested to get a hold of William Fotheringham's biography "Put Me Back on My Bike: In Search of Tom Simpson"
Not only did it open my eyes to what a superstar Simpson was, but it also helped to put the drug culture in context. Basically pro-cyclists have doped since cycling began, and some of the products they used back in the 20's and 30's were extremely frightening!
Within the pro-culture of the 60's having the income to afford the drugs the top pro's then used was a status symbol in the peloton. In the book one of Simpson's team mates said Simpson's briefcase of "Micky Finn's" as he called them, cost four times his annual salary as a domestique
If you read the book you'll come to the conclusion that, as much as the drugs, alcohol, and heat, and the illness he had on the day, it was Simpson's ability to push himself beyond the pain and suffering of other riders, (epitomised in his last words) that killed him. |
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Ivan
Speed Merchant
523 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 11:56:18
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I Agree with Steve McGinty , he was a star , a visit to the Tom Simpson display of memorabilia at the Harworth and Bircotes Social Club is well worth a visit , Ed Hood wrote a good article about our visit for Pez and Veloresults ( maybe it even appeared here ? ) a few years ago , I can't track it down though.
An unlovely habit of recent years is to judge people's actions in the past by the standards of today , it's easy to do and it might make people feel good about themselves but , as Gordon Goldie concedes above , things are usually more complicated than they seem.
Leve de Wielersport |
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BrianS
Administrator
1171 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 12:34:42
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i still find it difficult....
Surely with drug use you can push your body to its limits? Without, you would realise the signs quicker. Drugs can take away reality and allow you to do things you wouldn't do without them.
I totally respect Tom Simpson was in a difficult era and you can't judge him on today's standards.
so i'm still torn between respect and pity.
www.cyclevox.com
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Steve McGinty
Speed Merchant
739 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 13:32:54
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In the book Fotheringham talks about Simpson riding himself literally unconscious in his amateur racing days.
On the day he died it was a combination of many things that led to his collapse, but in particular the incredible heat and the dehydration he was suffering from crippling diarrhea (on previous stages his mechanics had to hose his bike down!)
Combine that with the then completely mis-founded attitude to race hydration (they didn't believe in bagging yourself up with water! plus the race rules only allowed 4 bidons per rider per day) Add in the pressure he was under from his team management (his sponsors, not the GB team he was riding for) as he was seen to be under-achieving, throw some amphetamines and brandy into the mix...
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ian sharp
Speed Merchant
522 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 14:24:42
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Oh,dear,where do I stand on this!
Simpson and Anquetil were my first idols.
When I lived in Manchester in1966,it was common knowledge that Tom,in his pursuiter days,brought a case of drugs with him.
One has to wonder,then,about his first foray into the World's,riding for,I think Rapha,when he finished a heroic 4th,then his incredible Roubaix,when he won the hearts of euro fans,being caught near the end!
Yet,in perspective,whether we like it or not,they were ALL at it,from the top down----the top,to win,the rest,just to keep up and earn a wage.
Over the years,all my heroes have let me down,Simmy,Anquetil(especially),Coppi---these are the ones found out!
And,as for the Brandy,yes,the Domestiques raided pubs for ANYTHING,that was all Lulu had left for Tom.
Finally,a phylosophical thought!
If Lance Armstrong never survived Cancer,who would have been the greatest Tour de France rider ever?
Jan Ulrich--check the records!!! |
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mysterae
Speed Merchant
790 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 21:32:19
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| In 1960 I went over to Belguim to prepere for the Tour that year and lived in Courtrai to be near John Kennedy. Later I shared a house in Ghent with an ex-Olympic track medalist (1948) who was still riding Pro Kermesses. We talked a lot about the drug situation, and what drugs both he and (allegedly) Tom Simpson were taking etc. Fotheringham was in the film last night and spoke of the drug Tonadron which again (allegedly), Simpson took like smarties! Mention has been made that he was taking drugs as an amateur - who knows?. I think it was probably drug abuse over the years up to 1967 that killed him. I was happy to compete and meet my heros like Rik van Looy, Charly Gaul and many others and ride the Worlds Pro-race in Germany. Having missed my chance to ride the Tour because of injury I came away disillusioned with the drug culture. I was much happier with my trips abroad with the GB team for events like the Peace Race and returning home to my home and work in Glasgow. However I don't think we should judge Tom too harshly - those were different times - there were no mentors or back up teams that the guys have now. You have to judge only in the context of those times. However it is ironic to ponder that most of the guys I rode with then on the continent are long gone (mostly prematurely). My experience was that it was better and more rewarding to be a happy amateur than a frustrated pro. Fortunately because of my youth and naievete I mananged to avoid the pitfalls of drugs and survived to tell the tale! Jimmy Rae |
Edited by - mysterae on 28 Jul 2010 21:44:23 |
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Chipolonie
Setting Off
70 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2010 : 00:03:32
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| Cheating drugie! end of. They new it was wrong then and always has been. |
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gus paterson
Crusing Past
254 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2010 : 00:18:26
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| Nice piece of reading/information Jimmy...I was in Canada at the time Tommy died,we were naive and shocked by the news...cheers...Gus. |
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Gordon Goldie
Speed Merchant
550 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2010 : 09:54:12
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Very interesting reading Jimmy. You're our link to that era and I'm sure loads of others will agree that we want to hear many more stories like this please? Get it all typed or recorded while the remaining marbles are still in place?
Cheers
GG the II |
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fuente
Speed Merchant
866 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2010 : 20:23:26
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Ivan
Speed Merchant
523 Posts |
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grantus
Crusing Past
397 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2010 : 19:14:51
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Great stuff Jimmy.
P.S. Mr Tom is another book on Tommy Simpson that is well worth a read |
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jockanese
Speed Limits N/A
1581 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2010 : 08:23:02
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Just finished Laurent Fignon's autobiography (good read by the way!). He points out that the drugs used before EPO (amphetamine and cortisone) would not make a donkey into a thourough bred, champions were champions. But with EPO, HGH and similar, you had normal riders doing things that should have been imposible previously, i.e. Riis.
All illeagal, but it is a good point. |
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RossC
Setting Off
55 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2010 : 12:31:10
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That is a good point.
Some consider that "if they are all taking stuff, then it's still a level playing field".
However, it seems that Riis was a good rider, but with an exceptional tolerance to EPO, getting over 60%.
So he could then beat exceptional riders who suffered side effects getting anywhere near 50%! |
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harrisphoto
Speed Limits N/A
1205 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2010 : 13:16:10
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by fuente[/i]
[br]+1
+2
Martin Harris
www.discoveryjcc.co.uk |
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jockanese
Speed Limits N/A
1581 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2010 : 15:17:20
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| A pro who rode at the same time as Riis, before EPO, was very surprised when he won the Tour and said he could remember when BR couldnt climb over a railway bridge! |
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Ivan
Speed Merchant
523 Posts |
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MCoopland
Speed Limits N/A
1274 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2010 : 08:39:00
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Ivan[/i]
[br]http://www.internationalcyclesport.com/html/simpson_museum.html
The main display cabinet at Harworth and Bircotes.
Leve de Wielersport
Thanks for putting that link in Ivan. on the same page is a report about the huddersfield 2day from 1963. this race was a fable when i started cycling. The roads that the report describes were the roads that i rode on around my house. My club secretary's house (the Condor road club) was at the top of penny hill and it is as it describes, a cobled brute of a hill about a mile long with an average of 1:5 but with steeper sections. The approach to the hill would have been suicidal, especially using Mafac or GB brakes!
Note the front page of "Cycling". Photos and reports from domestic races rather than some staffer posing in whatever £200 jersey they are trying to sell. Now wouldn't that make you buy it again?
Martin Coopland
www.crotchguard.co.uk
Crap name - great product!
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Ivan
Speed Merchant
523 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2010 : 11:14:23
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by mysterae[/i]
[br]In 1960 I went over to Belguim to prepere for the Tour that year and lived in Courtrai to be near John Kennedy. Later I shared a house in Ghent with an ex-Olympic track medalist (1948) who was still riding Pro Kermesses. We talked a lot about the drug situation, and what drugs both he and (allegedly) Tom Simpson were taking etc. Fotheringham was in the film last night and spoke of the drug Tonadron which again (allegedly), Simpson took like smarties! Mention has been made that he was taking drugs as an amateur - who knows?. I think it was probably drug abuse over the years up to 1967 that killed him. I was happy to compete and meet my heros like Rik van Looy, Charly Gaul and many others and ride the Worlds Pro-race in Germany. Having missed my chance to ride the Tour because of injury I came away disillusioned with the drug culture. I was much happier with my trips abroad with the GB team for events like the Peace Race and returning home to my home and work in Glasgow. However I don't think we should judge Tom too harshly - those were different times - there were no mentors or back up teams that the guys have now. You have to judge only in the context of those times. However it is ironic to ponder that most of the guys I rode with then on the continent are long gone (mostly prematurely). My experience was that it was better and more rewarding to be a happy amateur than a frustrated pro. Fortunately because of my youth and naievete I mananged to avoid the pitfalls of drugs and survived to tell the tale! Jimmy Rae
@ Jimmy Rae
http://www.veloresults.co.uk/2007/01/john-kennedy-helping-simpson-in-le-tour/
Article ( to which you contributed ) by Ed Hood on John Kennedy
Leve de Wielersport |
Edited by - Ivan on 05 Aug 2010 11:53:05 |
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gus paterson
Crusing Past
254 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2010 : 15:38:15
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| Good one Ivan...I am doing a print out for some of my expat buddies i.e. Tommy Leonard... Nightingale,Art Everton...Manchester,will present them with it whilst having lunch today.Jimmy Rae knows these guys...Cheers...Gus. |
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ian sharp
Speed Merchant
522 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2010 : 16:27:54
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When I was riding the track at the old Fallowfield in the mid-sixties,the mentor and big Derny driver of the club,(Abbotsford Park)big Jim Paterson--known to all as Jim Pat,--was qhite scathing about Simpson,bringing his wee bundle of whatever with him,Fallowfield then being the best track,of a bad bunch by today's standards.
So,yes,I know,"allegations"
Smoke without fire? So sad! |
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Tommy Simpson
